First, how would you define "activist" and second, why do you think he doesn't want to be one? He also makes a point about dismissing people (starts at about 14 min in), how would you respond?
Codex: I'm not sure whom he meant, but not to be dismissive of people's opposing opinion if presented in a sane clear headed manner. At least I assume.
It's about the reason he left, which was a selfish one. The politics at ivey leagues is insane so there is a lot he is not mentioning. He left preemptively. Probably received threats. An activist in this case is someone who writes letters to the admin and the board, as a tenured prof he's got a job for life, but he chose to abandon his position of power. He sells books.
Codex: He's scared. He's also a hypocrite. He mentions Vaclav Havel, who "fought". Had he just said that he doesn't want to get involved or take on the political admin I'd respect him more. Organizing book fairs for the Ukraine is not the same as what eg. Havel did. Even dissidents need a leader, he doesnt want to. Make sense?
You come across as angry, about the fact that he chose an institution outside the US (which he explains with his wish to change from an ivy league fee paying university to a more diverse one and also some midlife change), that he writes and sells books (on tyranny and facism, two of which I was able to download for free and legally so), that he is not on the barricades, whatever that may involve and that somehow he does not want to directly fight the political admin and/or Yale admin which you implied may have been threatening him?
The thing I can understand most is his wish to teach at a more diverse, less exclusive university. I have worked in our local uni, one of the oldest in Germany, for 25+ years, regularly with research/exchange staff/students from the US and every single one has expressed surprise upon realising that all levels of education in Germany are free to all. No fees involved. So I get that. I have read the two Snyder books I could download and found them inspiring, especially for my involvement in the various activist movements over the past years. In the documentary series on Zelensky I watched (one on BBC last year, one on the French/German channel arte just recently) Snyder's work with students in Ukraine over recent years was shown in detail. I count this as international activism against Russian tyranny. Or does being active only count when it happens in the US?
BTW. In the 1990, Havel welcomed Frank Zappa and Michael Jackson to play for him at the Prague castle. I still respect him for his activism despite the fact that I have reservations, to put it mildly, about both artists, which Havel clearly admired.
I don't get the "even dissdents need a leader". Can you explain? Just as a matter of interest, what would you want him to do? And more importantly, what are you yourself doing?
Codex: Angry at him? No, but I am disappointed. Angry about scientists being threatened and mistreated yes.
1st paragraph. His reason is bulls...UofT is a world renowned wealthy school. Canadian tuition, depending on program hasn't been free in 20 years. Some programs are 20 to 40K per year tuition for locals. He makes it sound like a uni for underprivileged kids and is condescending. Students are as diverse as Yale, but what I like about Canadian Uni is that it has a nice balance between European and US schools. Unlike the Iveys can't buy your way in. It's marks and scholarship. Unlike European schools plagiarism is taken very seriously.
I'm saying that we don't know what happened internally and schools will put a lot of pressure on staff to keep up an image. What is currently happening to US Unis by the government is frightening. Not sure if you know about it?
I was talking about what Havel achieved in the 50s and 60s despite the danger. Didn't know about later.
On Freedom: https://workupload.com/file/TWpKncNkv32 On Tyranny: https://archive.org/details/on-tyranny-twenty-lessons-from-the-twentieth-century-by-timothy-snyder-z-lib.org
There are several links, these are the first that came up just now. Do a web search on Timothy Snyder books pdf or Timothy Snyder books download free etc.
Thanks, she basically expresses what the commentators in the big German (and other European) media outlets, regardless of political leanings, are expressing too. Historians and political scientists here have been following the developments in the US closely and the general consensus is very much like hers. Maybe it's because we still have survivors of the nazi era living here, people who have experienced not only war but also what it was like as schoolkids, teachers, workers etc. and maybe also because of the memorial work in schools, public spaces, media, museums etc. In university, I studied the German/Austrian exiled authors, Brecht, Mann, Zweig, and their involvement in resistance from afar, their public and personal lives - and despair (Zweig committed suicide bc of the loss of his intellectual and cultural homeland). It helps me to relate to Marci Shore's words. You mentioned in one of your comments that organizing book fairs is not enough. I am part of a group that organises annual readings commemorating the authors whose books were banned and burned by the nazis, something that is done in many places here. I also organised bookfairs in Ireland in the 1980s with books and authors banned by the catholic church/state. For me, this is/was activism. Anyway, thanks for the link, here is one you may be interested in: https://youtu.be/7PcxC1p-Z-g?feature=shared
Codex: Easier to explain in an in person conversation. This way it's like walking off in the middle of a sentence. I posted Marci his wife because she clearly explains why the left; fear. Sad because they are generational Americans and it should have never come to it. They are a power couple and tenured profs (does this exist in Germany?) can write and do whatever they want. They basically can't be fired. They can also leave as visiting profs for a few years. They abandoned grad students and students who looked up to them. Just because there are exiled authors doesn't mean that history has to repeat itself.
To book fairs. I was talking about them, not you. They are preeminent scholars in this field. Both of them!
Codex: In a general historical context: Germany never regained its reputation postwar. It was the country of philosophers, thinkers scientists for about two centuries along with Britain. German authors are often cited. They left for America, which became the powerhouse of research. If the current government persists the same will happen to the US. Generations of future scholars gone. Knowledge gone.
His vid (thanks for the link) addresses that and he says what I was trying to say in a few sentences above. Neither he nor Yale can be told what to teach. But less wealthy Unis can. So he was in a position of power to educate thousands of students a year.
As to what you do. Yes it's activism but it's too late. We're beyond that now. The people who attend are usually not the people one needs to worry about.
Sabine:"I don't get the "even dissdents need a leader". Can you explain? Just as a matter of interest, what would you want him to do? And more importantly, what are you yourself doing?"
Right now many don't know what to do. So an oppositional leader/s is needed. Snyder is a theoretician but giving advice on what others should do that he himself is not willing to. That's his choice and a disappointing one. Whether in Germany or 'Murica, democracy is being threatened. Most people don't even realize how serious all of this is.
From the distance of an ocean, your democracy feels decisively different to ours. You basically have to opposing parties fighting each other, claiming good vs bad, and money as well as candidates personal lives and religion have a massive influence. And we still try to understand how the electoral colleges fit in. None of this is of major importance here, we don't really give a fig about any politician's lifestyle, family affairs or money - unless it's connected to lobbyism and bribes. Incomes of elected politicians must be declared publicly anyway. But the main difference is that democracy here rests on coalitions and that means working (governing) with groups and individuals who may not agree with each other 100%, hence compormises are not a sign of weakness bc allowing for compromise is the ability to be realistic and to jointly work for whatever the goal is. And with that we don't go for leaders as such - also, due to our history with a leader, obv - there are always individuals and groups who can shake and move but the democracy I live in does not require an individual that leads. Also, a middle aged university professor of Central and Eastern European history would be respected (and he is) as a thinker and someone who can explain and connect dots but what leadership is he supposed to provide?
I read your discussion with Codex here with interest. Given how the current admin is coming down on universities, Snyder may well be even better positioned to shed light on what is transpiring from where he is. I certainly don't hold him personally responsible for saving us just because he framed the circumstance as an intellectual. And if he did leave because he saw what was coming, and declines to publicly declare that, well that's his prerogative, too. I am always vastly curious about your take on all this, precisely because of what you lived through first hand, watching somewhat from the sidelines, supposedly among the safe, but psychologically marked nonetheless. Thank you for posting this, Sabine, and for your insights here.
Well I did not live through facism first hand, my parents and grandparents did. But we have a nasty neo-nazi party shuffling around and gaining power in local parliaments in some of the federal states, so we are watching and working on not having history repeating. Most of the thinkers and literary figures that shaped my teenage and student years had been forced into exile during the hitler reign. That did not make them less important - quite the opposite. Names like Hannah Arendt or Bertholt Brecht may have been silenced in nazi Germany but only in public and their works are on the curriculum to this day. When I read about children's books being banned in the US, I can come up with a list of children's authors whose books were publicly burned in Germany and who were never not read (albeit in secret) and are read to this day. Banning books a futile exercise of false power.
Codex: Trying this way because I cannot edit. Sabine: From the distance of an ocean, your democracy feels decisively different to ours. You basically have to opposing parties fighting each other, claiming good vs bad, and money as well as candidates personal lives and religion have a massive influence. Codex: That's mostly media sensationalism. It's up to the states and communities what they want to implement. Up to know the pres didn't have those kind of powers (he doesn't get that). Religious influence is rarely felt other than pockets. The media is focusing on a minority. And we still try to understand how the electoral colleges fit in. None of this is of major importance here, we don't really give a fig about any politician's lifestyle, family affairs or money - unless it's connected to lobbyism and bribes. Incomes of elected politicians must be declared publicly anyway. But the main difference is that democracy here rests on coalitions and that means working (governing) with groups and individuals who may not agree with each other 100%, hence compormises are not a sign of weakness bc allowing for compromise is the ability to be realistic and to jointly work for whatever the goal is. And with that we don't go for leaders as such - also, due to our history with a leader, obv - there are always individuals and groups who can shake and move but the democracy I live in does not require an individual that leads. Also, a middle aged university professor of Central and Eastern European history would be respected (and he is) as a thinker and someone who can explain and connect dots but what leadership is he supposed to provide?
Codex: Sorry. Had to charge and couldn't finish. It's a little confusing because it's unclear at times whether you're talking about Democratic governments past or present.
I'm talking about now. Within the university context snyder could have been a "leader" and an important voice.
Yes. In the past remembrance is something that Germany is famous for for obvious reasons. Again, Aren't and Brecht were philosophers and playwrights in the 40s and 50s, who intellectuality what had happened. There are many others since. *intellectualized*. Despite all of that here we are again.
Codex: Not the same, but Harry Potter was/is banned because kids might start dark magic'Doby bring me my wand' and the scifi Jumper. The concept of good and evil....well
Thank you so much for this- he dropped off of my radar and there he is being brilliant and clear thinking! This is a valuable perspective right now!
ReplyDelete"Recognize that action means imperfect people working together."
ReplyDelete-- Timothy Snyder
Grateful for his voice, his writing, his encouragement.
Codex: He's a gifted writer and academic, but he left a tenured position as chair and he's telling people to go read a book.
ReplyDeleteHe's not an activist and doesn't want to be one.
First, how would you define "activist" and second, why do you think he doesn't want to be one? He also makes a point about dismissing people (starts at about 14 min in), how would you respond?
DeleteCodex: I'm not sure whom he meant, but not to be dismissive of people's opposing opinion if presented in a sane clear headed manner. At least I assume.
DeleteIt's about the reason he left, which was a selfish one. The politics at ivey leagues is insane so there is a lot he is not mentioning. He left preemptively. Probably received threats. An activist in this case is someone who writes letters to the admin and the board, as a tenured prof he's got a job for life, but he chose to abandon his position of power. He sells books.
Codex: He's scared. He's also a hypocrite. He mentions Vaclav Havel, who "fought". Had he just said that he doesn't want to get involved or take on the political admin I'd respect him more. Organizing book fairs for the Ukraine is not the same as what eg. Havel did. Even dissidents need a leader, he doesnt want to. Make sense?
DeleteYou come across as angry, about the fact that he chose an institution outside the US (which he explains with his wish to change from an ivy league fee paying university to a more diverse one and also some midlife change), that he writes and sells books (on tyranny and facism, two of which I was able to download for free and legally so), that he is not on the barricades, whatever that may involve and that somehow he does not want to directly fight the political admin and/or Yale admin which you implied may have been threatening him?
DeleteThe thing I can understand most is his wish to teach at a more diverse, less exclusive university. I have worked in our local uni, one of the oldest in Germany, for 25+ years, regularly with research/exchange staff/students from the US and every single one has expressed surprise upon realising that all levels of education in Germany are free to all. No fees involved. So I get that.
I have read the two Snyder books I could download and found them inspiring, especially for my involvement in the various activist movements over the past years. In the documentary series on Zelensky I watched (one on BBC last year, one on the French/German channel arte just recently) Snyder's work with students in Ukraine over recent years was shown in detail. I count this as international activism against Russian tyranny. Or does being active only count when it happens in the US?
BTW. In the 1990, Havel welcomed Frank Zappa and Michael Jackson to play for him at the Prague castle. I still respect him for his activism despite the fact that I have reservations, to put it mildly, about both artists, which Havel clearly admired.
I don't get the "even dissdents need a leader". Can you explain?
Just as a matter of interest, what would you want him to do? And more importantly, what are you yourself doing?
Codex: Angry at him? No, but I am disappointed. Angry about scientists being threatened and mistreated yes.
Delete1st paragraph. His reason is bulls...UofT is a world renowned wealthy school. Canadian tuition, depending on program hasn't been free in 20 years. Some programs are 20 to 40K per year tuition for locals. He makes it sound like a uni for underprivileged kids and is condescending. Students are as diverse as Yale, but what I like about Canadian Uni is that it has a nice balance between European and US schools. Unlike the Iveys can't buy your way in. It's marks and scholarship. Unlike European schools plagiarism is taken very seriously.
I'm saying that we don't know what happened internally and schools will put a lot of pressure on staff to keep up an image. What is currently happening to US Unis by the government is frightening. Not sure if you know about it?
I was talking about what Havel achieved in the 50s and 60s despite the danger. Didn't know about later.
Codex: Do you mind posting the download links?
DeleteSabine, I wasn't criticizing you. Read and get inspired by whomever does that for you.
I'll get back to the other questions later.
On Freedom: https://workupload.com/file/TWpKncNkv32
DeleteOn Tyranny: https://archive.org/details/on-tyranny-twenty-lessons-from-the-twentieth-century-by-timothy-snyder-z-lib.org
There are several links, these are the first that came up just now. Do a web search on Timothy Snyder books pdf or Timothy Snyder books download free etc.
He sounds like an interesting man.
ReplyDeleteCodex: This might interest you.
ReplyDeletehttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=noJ4rMMYvdo
Thanks, she basically expresses what the commentators in the big German (and other European) media outlets, regardless of political leanings, are expressing too. Historians and political scientists here have been following the developments in the US closely and the general consensus is very much like hers.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's because we still have survivors of the nazi era living here, people who have experienced not only war but also what it was like as schoolkids, teachers, workers etc. and maybe also because of the memorial work in schools, public spaces, media, museums etc.
In university, I studied the German/Austrian exiled authors, Brecht, Mann, Zweig, and their involvement in resistance from afar, their public and personal lives - and despair (Zweig committed suicide bc of the loss of his intellectual and cultural homeland). It helps me to relate to Marci Shore's words.
You mentioned in one of your comments that organizing book fairs is not enough. I am part of a group that organises annual readings commemorating the authors whose books were banned and burned by the nazis, something that is done in many places here. I also organised bookfairs in Ireland in the 1980s with books and authors banned by the catholic church/state. For me, this is/was activism.
Anyway, thanks for the link, here is one you may be interested in:
https://youtu.be/7PcxC1p-Z-g?feature=shared
Codex: Easier to explain in an in person conversation. This way it's like walking off in the middle of a sentence. I posted Marci his wife because she clearly explains why the left; fear. Sad because they are generational Americans and it should have never come to it. They are a power couple and tenured profs (does this exist in Germany?) can write and do whatever they want. They basically can't be fired. They can also leave as visiting profs for a few years. They abandoned grad students and students who looked up to them.
ReplyDeleteJust because there are exiled authors doesn't mean that history has to repeat itself.
To book fairs. I was talking about them, not you. They are preeminent scholars in this field. Both of them!
Codex: In a general historical context: Germany never regained its reputation postwar. It was the country of philosophers, thinkers scientists for about two centuries along with Britain. German authors are often cited. They left for America, which became the powerhouse of research. If the current government persists the same will happen to the US. Generations of future scholars gone. Knowledge gone.
ReplyDeleteHis vid (thanks for the link) addresses that and he says what I was trying to say in a few sentences above. Neither he nor Yale can be told what to teach. But less wealthy Unis can. So he was in a position of power to educate thousands of students a year.
As to what you do. Yes it's activism but it's too late. We're beyond that now. The people who attend are usually not the people one needs to worry about.
Codex:
ReplyDeleteSabine:"I don't get the "even dissdents need a leader". Can you explain?
Just as a matter of interest, what would you want him to do? And more importantly, what are you yourself doing?"
Right now many don't know what to do. So an oppositional leader/s is needed. Snyder is a theoretician but giving advice on what others should do that he himself is not willing to. That's his choice and a disappointing one. Whether in Germany or 'Murica, democracy is being threatened. Most people don't even realize how serious all of this is.
From the distance of an ocean, your democracy feels decisively different to ours. You basically have to opposing parties fighting each other, claiming good vs bad, and money as well as candidates personal lives and religion have a massive influence. And we still try to understand how the electoral colleges fit in.
DeleteNone of this is of major importance here, we don't really give a fig about any politician's lifestyle, family affairs or money - unless it's connected to lobbyism and bribes. Incomes of elected politicians must be declared publicly anyway. But the main difference is that democracy here rests on coalitions and that means working (governing) with groups and individuals who may not agree with each other 100%, hence compormises are not a sign of weakness bc allowing for compromise is the ability to be realistic and to jointly work for whatever the goal is. And with that we don't go for leaders as such - also, due to our history with a leader, obv - there are always individuals and groups who can shake and move but the democracy I live in does not require an individual that leads.
Also, a middle aged university professor of Central and Eastern European history would be respected (and he is) as a thinker and someone who can explain and connect dots but what leadership is he supposed to provide?
I read your discussion with Codex here with interest. Given how the current admin is coming down on universities, Snyder may well be even better positioned to shed light on what is transpiring from where he is. I certainly don't hold him personally responsible for saving us just because he framed the circumstance as an intellectual. And if he did leave because he saw what was coming, and declines to publicly declare that, well that's his prerogative, too. I am always vastly curious about your take on all this, precisely because of what you lived through first hand, watching somewhat from the sidelines, supposedly among the safe, but psychologically marked nonetheless. Thank you for posting this, Sabine, and for your insights here.
ReplyDeleteWell I did not live through facism first hand, my parents and grandparents did. But we have a nasty neo-nazi party shuffling around and gaining power in local parliaments in some of the federal states, so we are watching and working on not having history repeating.
DeleteMost of the thinkers and literary figures that shaped my teenage and student years had been forced into exile during the hitler reign. That did not make them less important - quite the opposite. Names like Hannah Arendt or Bertholt Brecht may have been silenced in nazi Germany but only in public and their works are on the curriculum to this day. When I read about children's books being banned in the US, I can come up with a list of children's authors whose books were publicly burned in Germany and who were never not read (albeit in secret) and are read to this day. Banning books a futile exercise of false power.
Codex: Trying this way because I cannot edit. Sabine:
ReplyDeleteFrom the distance of an ocean, your democracy feels decisively different to ours. You basically have to opposing parties fighting each other, claiming good vs bad, and money as well as candidates personal lives and religion have a massive influence.
Codex: That's mostly media sensationalism. It's up to the states and communities what they want to implement. Up to know the pres didn't have those kind of powers (he doesn't get that). Religious influence is rarely felt other than pockets. The media is focusing on a minority.
And we still try to understand how the electoral colleges fit in.
None of this is of major importance here, we don't really give a fig about any politician's lifestyle, family affairs or money - unless it's connected to lobbyism and bribes. Incomes of elected politicians must be declared publicly anyway. But the main difference is that democracy here rests on coalitions and that means working (governing) with groups and individuals who may not agree with each other 100%, hence compormises are not a sign of weakness bc allowing for compromise is the ability to be realistic and to jointly work for whatever the goal is. And with that we don't go for leaders as such - also, due to our history with a leader, obv - there are always individuals and groups who can shake and move but the democracy I live in does not require an individual that leads.
Also, a middle aged university professor of Central and Eastern European history would be respected (and he is) as a thinker and someone who can explain and connect dots but what leadership is he supposed to provide?
Codex: Sorry. Had to charge and couldn't finish. It's a little confusing because it's unclear at times whether you're talking about Democratic governments past or present.
ReplyDeleteI'm talking about now. Within the university context snyder could have been a "leader" and an important voice.
Yes. In the past remembrance is something that Germany is famous for for obvious reasons. Again, Aren't and Brecht were philosophers and playwrights in the 40s and 50s, who intellectuality what had happened. There are many others since. *intellectualized*. Despite all of that here we are again.
Codex: Not the same, but Harry Potter was/is banned because kids might start dark magic'Doby bring me my wand' and the scifi Jumper. The concept of good and evil....well
ReplyDelete